>>>>> "jm" == Jeroen Massar <jeroen@xxx> writes: jm> I think they call it "slander" what you are trying to do, or jm> was it "libel"? .....r...right. jm> Ever wondered where most CCC people get their IPv6 from? :) CCCC is SixXS, but I think it is hard to run a server there because they are trying so much to save power. It's mostly just laptop clients. so I guess the server policy is no problem for them. They mentioned some problem with a ``tunnel points'' hoop they had to jump through, but it sounded like they had it worked out. Berlin is from Packbart I think? some ISP-ish guy who runs a few AS's? I couldn't get a clear answer in Berlin. I think they were working on setting up some new things that were not finished. The Congress gets dark fiber and collects transit from a bunch of friendly ISP's from scratch every year, so I would expect one of the peers throws in v6. not sure what's going on in Hamburg, if they have v6 or not. I wish I'd asked. They did have a workin ChaosPhone though! most of the individuals I know use xs26, though, because they accept anyone, and it ``just works.'' jm> * If you want to define your own rules/requirements: pay for jm> it. [...] jm> Then PAY for it. Go to NTT, C&W, and a lot of other ISP's who jm> can provide it to you. jm> For the ARIN region, take your pick: jm> http://www.sixxs.net/tools/grh/dfp/arin/ If you read the thread here, I'm trying to do just that, as are several other people in NYCBUG. I haven't found any good options. I sent an email to Hurricane asking to pay for a nonsilly tunnel a month ago---no response. I discussed getting v6 from Alex on this list---not happening right away. I sent an email to nLayer today, but I doubt they handle such small pipes. Anyone on this list have experience with NTT or C&W in T1 sizes? wasn't someone saying NTT has v6 but not at all POPs? jm> Do note that we do publish, in whois.sixxs.net, the jm> IPv4 endpoint of every user and with even a slight breeze of jm> an abuse ticket we will terminate the account, yes, this ``slight breeze'' thing is one of my main concerns. My irc server and shell server are available on v4 as well. I'm not ``hiding'' from anyone. And when I ran it under OCCAID, I agreed when I signed up and repeatedly thereafter that I'd take the irc server off IPv6 if there were any DDoS problems with it. Such agreements were the foundation of the Internet I grew up with. It's really sad and frustrating for me to see us moving to this new ``slightest breeze'' system. jm> go to one of the many "IRC Shell Hosting" companies jm> who have "bulletproof" services etc blabla. They tend to have jm> you pay for them btw. Yeah, I know about those. We use those, too. I think we have three or four of them. And yes, we pay for them. And they're a lot cheaper than the T1+colo I was using for OCCAID. And they don't have IPv6. But you're under no obligation to provide a complete solution to everyone's problems. ``I want to run an irc server'' doesn't mean you have to either help me do it yourself or else tell me how to do it without you, and I also don't have to take your advice. so I don't think ``irc shell hosting'' has much to do with the problems of getting reasonable v6 transit in the US. I'm just saying, I'm embarassed to offer some degraded port-blocked or condescending-AUP'ed v6 to my friends in the same way that I wouldn't buy Internet that didn't permit wireless sharing. Also, it doesn't fit my needs because I want to run ipv6 irc and shell servers, and others who want to do the same should be aware. jm> If you really have a 'shell service' which is not meant for jm> IRC, can you explain what that service entails? mail, webpage-serving, hosting 'screen' sessions for irc. There's other chat stuff on there like mcabber and silc. emacs. A few people may write C or Perl programs there if they don't have their own Unix. finger and ytalk still work on my box, like in the old days. <shrug>. I don't know what other people are doing with their shell servers. Some were doing audio streaming at one point. One guy runs a Jabber server. There's always talk about VoIP, but no one finishes it. but I'm really not interested in second-class Internet access for any price whether it =0 or not, so I'm not sure why I need to justify to you what I'm doing with my shell server, and endorse the IMO silly implication that irc is ``abuse''. jm> I checked, but you clearly never signed up to SixXS and never jm> send an email either. I think you and I had a discussion on the OCCAID list, so it's not exactly fair to imply I just appeared out of nowhere. I was going to sign up until a couple of my friends pointed out irc and shell servers were forbidden, which makes SixXS uninteresting to me, so what's the point? jm> Can you also show which person didn't provide his real name jm> and got rejected? yeah, I could try. I'm a little concerned though because I feel like I'm basically blacklisted from OCCAID/SixXS folk at this point, and I don't want to make my friend into another squeaky wheel to go on your shit list. The stories are common enough that I find them a credible irritant to working with and getting reliable drama-free service from your crew. If others find my experiences too vague without the names and dates, I think I'll leave them with their skepticism. jm> If you don't like that [DNS spam] rule, then don't use the jm> service. That's exactly what I'm doing, for the moment. However, one thing that gets lost in these discussions sometimes is that it's completely reasonable for me to use a service but still complain about it. James has asked me over and over again, if I have such a problem with him claiming to be ``apolitical'' or with ``layer 10 issues,'' why did I keep using OCCAID, and the answer is very simple: there isn't a good alternative, and, as I never fail to mention, by some metrics OCCAID was very good. I think it's important to accept criticism. Based on the way James and other OCCAID folk have responded to my criticism in the past, I'm not really comfortable speaking with full frankness until (1) I'm not doing it on his list where he can emergency-moderate it, and (2) I'm already cut off from OCCAID, so I've got nothing more to lose by failing to grovel to the nerd mafia. jm> Over the years having this little rule in place has saved us jm> from a lot of problems. well, it's not just one rule. It's the DNS ``spam'' rule, which you equate with ``network abuse''. It's the ``slightest breeze'' policy. It's the blocking people whose names don't sound real enough. It's the complicated email address validation stuff. and who knows what else. I just don't want to deal with it, because even after I do get it working, it's just going to go down again when some gentle zephyr trips one of your auto-kiddie-hoop tests and flags me as an abuser, after which my account gets permanently blacklisted. As for the rules saving you from problems, yeah, I get it. You have to be practical. You have to build something that doesn't fall apart. And if we look around, we don't see much of that. but _post hoc ergo propter hoc_: how do you really know which rules have done what when you have so many? My intuition says BGP is a better hoop than any of this other stuff. And the value system you've built around what should be practical value-agnostic rules for which, if anything, you regrettably appologize is definitely not necessary. Instead the definition of this word ``abuse'' has spread like a hungry mold. jm> Clearly you know what DDoS does to your network, and you have jm> had to, according to wikipedia, change ISP's because you where jm> a DDoS target. So why should we, as a free (gratuit, free as jm> in beer) provider allow you to attracked it and then let *OUR* jm> systems get hurt by it? I can't think of a good reason why you would offer v6 for free at all, much less put up with non-customers getting DDoSed. However, I do exactly that same thing, also for free, for a few other people who host shell servers on my shelf, so maybe the answer is ``for the same reason I do,'' whatever that is. >> but I will probably sign up soon to get back some kind of >> censored politicized v6 (albeit without BGP now). jm> Why do you have a need for BGP? Do you have your own ASN? Do jm> you have multiple circuits to the Internet? Do you have a jm> prefix to announce? If not, then why BGP, as it for sure jm> isn't helping connectivity for a bit for you in that case. So jm> please any arguments? I need to learn BGP. This is what OCCAID was invented _for_. only as a second step did it get involved in IPv6. no, obviously you don't have to provide BGP to your users to be a valuable service, but there's no reason I need to justify myself with ``arguments'' before I can be sad that I used to have BGP, and now I can't get it any more. Seriously....this is a Unix user's group. We do not have a cost/benefit analysis for everything we learn, use, or play with. I think SixXS is against the Internet ethic for other reasons, not because it doesn't offer BGP. But I'm...well first, I'm not saying you're doing this exactly. But I've seen others do it, and I suspect it's common. I'm frustrated when netadmin types talk about ``kiddies wanting access to the elite default free zone'' or some such, basically making fun of people for being curious and enthusiastic like that implies some sort of weakness or desperation. It's sort of like a father calling his nine-year-old son a skinny whimp and knocking him around and pushing him down and not letting him win at sports. It's not just unreasonable or harmful. As a geek, I find it absolutely disgusting. You guys seem to start by thinking BGP is some kind of privilege that has to be earned or deserved (which I don't agree with), and then extend it _further_ suggesting that even trying to _earn_ it is pathetic---it has to fall in your lap, or be forced upon you, and only in that way does it become deserved. Imagine if the source code for BSD were a privilege given only to people who proved they had both need and ability to write drivers. We'd be the laughingstock of our community. the awkward ugly girl at the catholic school wearing the abstinence T-shirt that says ``I'm worth waiting for.'' Sorry, that's just not my culture. jm> You clearly seem to have a more personal issue then than jm> anything else. If you want to talk about it, try jm> info@xxx. or I could just post on any mailing list anywhere and wait for you guys to google yourselves. Then you'll yuck it up in private irc channels so I hear back from my friends ``haha those guys are LOLing it up over you again Miles'', and then eventually, as I predicted in my original post, you'll track me down from wherever outside NYC you operate and engage me on our little local user's group list. such service! :) here's what I would say to info@: Q. I would like to sign up, but I run an irc and shell server. Do the rules apply to everyone else, but not me? A. No. Q. shit. BTW I think the rules suck. Anyway seriously thanks for the invitation and the reply. And thanks for the work you've done taking the first few small steps for IPv6 in the many, many years since the basic tools have been available. I just hope we can get some viable competition in this space soon, because I think that will make everyone's attitude mellow out a bit, and better yet will give me the chance to take your repeated ``then PAY for it'' jab seriously.
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